SEO Insights > The Blue Array Broadcast Episode One – James McAulay, Encore Musicians

The Blue Array Broadcast Episode One – James McAulay, Encore Musicians

Posted by David Gale on March 21, 2021

The Blue Array Broadcast

Episode Summary

In our debut episode David Gale (Business Marketing Director) had the pleasure of speaking with James McAulay, the co-founder and CEO of Encore Musicians – one of the largest marketplaces for booking live musicians in the world.

James reflects on the challenges he and his business faced during the pandemic last year, and also share some insights into the success they’re now seeing in 2021. With the nature of their business model, Encore had to pivot and look at new opportunities available to them during the pandemic.

A large advocate for SEO as an acquisition channel, James also talks about the crucial role it plays within his organisation especially during the Pandemic last year where the revenues they did manage to realise came from their organic visibility.

An inspiring conversation for both marketers and business owners.

Full transcript of conversation

David: Hello James.

James: Hi David. How’s it going?

David: Yeah, very well thank you. How are you?

James: I’m good. Yeah, I’m doing well. The weather’s getting nicer. There’s an end to lock down insight at some point. So yeah, I’m feeling pretty optimistic at the moment.

David: Thank you so much for your time today on what is to be the debut edition of the Blue Array Broadcast. We’re making a little bit of history.

James: I’m so nervous. I hope I set the bar pretty high. We’ll see how this goes.

David: Fantastic. For any listeners that are not in the know, would you be happy to tell us a little bit about Encore and how it all started?

James: Sure. So Encore is a marketplace for booking musicians. We provide soloists and bands and orchestras for weddings and events and TV shows and all sorts. And we’ve done over 10,000 bookings now, all over the UK and even in Europe as well. And how it started, I guess if you go all the way back, you know, my parents met in an orchestra. I was a musician myself growing up. I went to a music school. Then I went to uni and had a music scholarship there whilst studying computer science. So I was sort of combining two things that I loved at uni. I was playing in an orchestra as I was playing in bands. I sang in a barbershop group at one point. And, yeah it was fun. There were some very embarrassing pictures of me. That’s a story for another day. And I just noticed that organising music, finding musicians you know, to play at events or playing concerts was just really chaotic at uni. And I started to realise that that problem existed outside of universities as well.

And that generally finding musicians was a hard problem. You want it to make sure you find good musicians, you wanted them to be available on the day of your event. You want them to be quite local. And then even when you find someone who like matches all those criteria, music’s very subjective. So you kind of want to find the perfect act and you know, the perfect sound for your, for your day or for your evening.

So I joined Entrepreneur First, which is an accelerator that sort of matches people up to create businesses. I met my co-founder there who’s also called James. And I guess the rest, as they say is history.

“I was asked the question “If you could do anything differently in starting your business, what would it be?” And without hesitation, my answer genuinely was to focus on SEO from day one.”

David: As we approach the end of Q1 this year, how is everything going with the business?

James: Wow. What a year it’s been. Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, we’re still here right? And genuinely over the last 12 months there were, were several moments where I really thought that we might not make it. And I’m sure a lot of businesses have been through the same roller coaster as us, particularly anyone who’s been in the events industry or in the music industry just hit really, really hard. And thankfully, no, as we sort of work ahead to Q2 things are actually looking pretty rosy. I’ll give you this sort of condensed summary of the last 12 months coming into 2020. All of our metrics were better than it’s ever been. We’re setting, you know, new revenue records literally every week.

I thought, you know, this is it. This is our year. First week of March was actually our biggest week ever for revenue and for booking volumes. So even whilst the news of coronavirus was getting more and more British and less, you know, European and, and less you know, it wasn’t something that was just in Wuhan.

It wasn’t something that was just in Europe. It was actually in the UK, even with that happening, people were still booking musicians right up until the, by I think it was the 13th of March where Boris has said, you know, you should work from home. Don’t go to work. And at that point, you know, everything just started to collapse basically.

It makes complete sense and, and all of our, all of our numbers sort of fell dramatically. We went from typically handling, you know, in a bad month, maybe 15 cancellations. I think in March, April, we did about 700 cancellations. So we kind of switched our, like I sort of focused from sales to customer support.

There were very few customers to sort of sell to and there were a lot to support at that time. So it was, it was pretty brutal. It was exhausting. And it was a scary time for everyone, right? So a couple of weeks into lockdown, we actually, the team did a brainstorm of like potential revenue ideas, or just ways that we could help our musicians first and foremost.

And they kind of made a big ranked list of, of products or ideas. And the one that came out on top was this idea of personalised music messages. Basically like musical postcards. Okay. And you could be one of our musicians to read out a message to, you know, a family member or a loved one, and then perform their favourite song and send it as a video.

And that helped musicians earn money. We gave money to the NHS with every single hour to the NHS charities, every single with every single booking. And that was something positive and like something innovative to sort of clutch onto whilst everything else was, was burning. I think it was just so helpful to have something new and something exciting to work on whilst, you know, everything else was just sort of a shadow of what it had been, Yeah, Before.

David: How quickly did you get that to market? So to speak?

James: It was, it was rapid, I think. I think the brainstorming started like sort of the 20th of March, maybe. And by the sort of 2nd of April, I think we were testing out our prototype. And then we, we went live on like the 4th of April or something.

So I genuinely, genuinely do think we were one of the very first businesses to do any sort of pivot. I guess that’s one of the advantages of being a small and nimble team is that you can adapt and move extremely fast. So we actually picked up a lot of press for that. We had more press mentions for that than we’d had in the entire history of the company.

And so from an SEO point of view, and from a backlink point of view, that was actually one of the best things that ever happened to the company for our, you know, for our rankings and our, our backlink profile.

David: Do you have that element in mind when you were brainstorming or was that a bonus from the, from the output?

James: I think it was definitely a bonus. I think the, the number one focus was. Our musicians, this is, this is bad for us, but our musicians cannot earn any money. And can we just find a way of helping them own money? And some of the other ideas were based on, you know, live streaming or sort of building tip jars that they could use on, you know, Facebook or Instagram live.

So first and foremost was like, help them make money. Second concern was like, let’s try and make some money ourselves because as a business, we’re really not making very much right now. And then I think, you know, we launched it. And I just remember getting a flurry of articles within about 24 hours from you know, tech crunch, business insider I’ve lost track. We were sort of everywhere. And then I think we realised after 24 hours, there is a press opportunity here. Not only is this great for us, but we’re sort of showing the industry and showing musicians that there is something positive here, and we are trying to do something inspiring, I guess.

So, yeah, the, the press was never the aim, but it was a very fortunate byproduct.

David: You talk about that kind of pivot and the need to innovate under the unprecedented times were there any other good examples you can share with those innovations that you speak of?

James: Yeah, definitely. So. I think shortly after the personalised music messages, maybe, you know, a month or two, after we looked into online teaching and we did actually work on a product to help teachers deliver safe lessons over the internet, because a lot of schools were just like jumping into zoom and there were some sort of safeguarding issues around that.

The teaching project was one of the, one of the initiatives that didn’t really take off. So, I think, when you’re a startup and when you’re experimenting, you do have to accept that you’re going to take a few, you know, you’re gonna take a few shots and one or two of them might be home runs and, and others just, they were great ideas, but for whatever reason, they didn’t work.

So we did that. We what was the other one? And towards Christmas last year we looked into. Virtual Christmas parties. And we did a lot of virtual Christmas parties with live musicians, doing fun workshops and sort of musical games with other companies. That was great in the run-up to Christmas because every single company was thinking we have to do something for our Christmas party, but we’ve noticed that since coming back after Christmas, the demand for virtual events isn’t there.

So actually, I know some companies have done well from virtual events, but I’m quite glad that we didn’t go like all in, on virtual events because I think there was a need for it at the end of last year. But I think everyone knows just busy planning, real events for the summer and for the second half of the year, that definitely did that.

“If we hadn’t focused on SEO, we would have had almost no revenue at all. SEO definitely sort of saved our butts to, in the pandemic. And I just wish we’d started to focus on it, five or six years ago, rather than two or three years ago.”

David: Has that manifested into bookings and interest now where there obviously has been the announcement of an easing of restrictions and everyone’s kind of, you know, buoyed by the spring and the, the prospect of summer. At what point did you start to see that, that kind of switch to the appetite to kind of come back feel about your, your core services?

James: So honestly it was almost immediately after Boris has been on TV. I think about 5:00 PM. And it was announcing the, the easing of lockdown and this sort of roadmap to get us out of lockdown. That evening we saw our traffic numbers start to climb up the next day we came in and were just sort of blown away by what we were seeing.

And no, I was just looking at the numbers before this, but we’re doing about six times more bookings right now than we were just a couple or two or three months ago in December. Not only has traffic shot up, but our conversion rates have all shot up as well. So it’s not just that more people are looking for music, but they all feel more confident that their events will go ahead.

Or at least there’s less uncertainty and less ambiguity. And not only do you have everyone who already wanted to get married this summer or have a party this summer. You also have everyone who tried to get married last year, trying to do it this year. So it was like a double whammy of bookings.

And we’re starting to see a lot of pubs and restaurants planning their, you know, their come back party. Maybe slightly optimistically on the 21st of June. I don’t know. I don’t know if we’re really going to make it to the 21st of June, but I definitely think that, you know, come July, there’s going to be a lot of parties.

It’s going to be a lot of live music. Hopefully fingers crossed, fingers crossed. I really hope we’re not listening to this in July, you know, in lock down 10 or whatever. But yeah, there’s, there’s been a lot of optimism and, and it’s, it’s helped our numbers so much to the point that. Genuinely this month, March, 2021 could be our biggest revenue month ever, which I just wasn’t expecting to happen during a lockdown, but it could happen.

David: It’s kind of that almost like you say, switch in terms of readiness. How did you rally the troops, so to speak, to be ready to deal with that sudden influx of interest?

James: Truth be told we’re not entirely ready. So we just had someone joined the company yesterday.

We had, I guess there were, there were certain roles last year that were sort of well, we had like before the pandemic, we had a role. But we call it picking specialist and it was a sort of operational customer service role and purine who was doing that role just immediately switched to customer support at this time last year and has been doing customer support most of the time, trying to squeeze it in the specialist work where she could.

But as soon as the demand went up a few weeks ago, we just knew that we definitely needed someone to do that full time. So purine still doing support and we just hired Veronica yesterday. Who’s now our booking specialist. I’m also, I’ve just been lining up, I think, six different calls on Thursday to recruit for a sales person and other sales person to try and get someone on board as quickly as possible.

So yeah, we’re, we’re making the most of the demand that we have right now, but we’re, we’re definitely slightly understaffed right now. And I am frantically trying to find the best people to help us make the most of it.

David: For sure. I was going to go back to a point early on when you mentioned the SEO benefit of the the music grams that you were setting up and obviously Blue Array, we are an SEO agency. And one of the common themes that I’d like to ask our guests when join the show is, is really to share their thoughts on what SEO means to them as an enabler and what it represents to you. So it would be really great for you to talk about that.

James: Yeah, absolutely. I was on a podcast this morning, actually, where I was asked the question “If you could do anything differently in starting your business, what would it be?” And without hesitation, my answer genuinely was to focus on SEO from day one. As a startup, I guess you’re trying to, especially nowadays, you’re trying to do things as quickly as possible.

And as we all know, SEO is not an overnight sort of tactic. You cannot decide on a Monday. We’re going to work on SEO and by Friday seeing lots of customers, but it is a long-term strategy, that components. And so in the early days we thought, well, we know SEO is important, but we can and need results no?

So we looked to Google ads, we looked at Facebook ads. We looked at being, you know, all of the PPC channels and we kind of went hard on them for a few years. Always knowing that SEO was important, but never quite prioritising it or really treating it as urgent. And I think it was, I think it was actually maybe three years ago now, or two or three years ago where we decided to work with, with you guys with Blue Array.

And that moment was really when we were saying, okay, we’re going to invest fully in SEO, we’re going to take this seriously. We know that we’re not going to see, you know, results in a few weeks, maybe even a few months, but we know that a few years from now, we’ll be glad that we did this. And I am so glad that we did start working.

And especially that we started working with you guys, because you were amazing. And I’m so glad that we did that because, this time last year when everything was falling apart, every single company was sort of slashing marketing budgets. No one was really looking for music. So we switched off all of our PPC campaigns.

Like just all of them went to zero and we just decided not to spend a penny on marketing. I think it was at least a month. We just kept them all off and it gradually introduced them back. But because we’d spent time on SEO, we did have this steady stream of people finding the site through, you know, organic search.

And so we did have some revenue through that period. And if we hadn’t focused on SEO, we would have had almost no revenue at all. SEO definitely sort of saved our butts to, in the pandemic. And I just wish we’d started to focus on it, five or six years ago, rather than two or three years ago.

“SEO is an incredibly defensible sort of moat, it’s a long term strategic advantage that cannot just be bought or stolen from you.”

David: That’s, that’s very interesting. And like you say, sometimes there is that misconception that it is kind of like a, a tap, you know, turning on and off and like the success comes immediately, but you do have to put the groundwork in to that and see the fruits of the labor down the road.

Was that an interesting conversation to have where you kind of, you know, there’s that additional kind of effort involved in terms of potentially it might be development. It might be copywriters third party involvement and that there is a level of spend necessitated, but it is a slower burn and the successes of it aren’t guaranteed.

So it’s always fascinating to me to hear how, you know, to kind of get that traction. And buy-in sometimes, it’s not the easiest of conversations.

James: Yeah, I think I think it did take us a while to get comfortable with the, as you say, the sort of the upfront spend or the investment, cause it’s definitely an investment that has a definite ROI, but getting comfortable with the idea that you won’t see the return for a while and in a way it feels like a gamble, right.

You know with marketing, you can switch on a campaign and a Monday and by Friday you can measure the results and say, we’re going to keep it on, or we’re going to keep it off and you can just be very. Quick and sort of ruthless with it with SEO. You cannot, you know, do it for a week and then decides, you know, that’s it, you really have to commit to it for months.

And then maybe a year later you can look back and say what what’s working for us. And obviously there are, there are leading indicators that you can look at and you can start to get a feel for whether it’s working. When you make, you know, technical speed changes or you sort of change the architecture of the site, you tend to see a change.

Within a few months, but yeah, it was a bit of a gamble. And I think we just knew that we didn’t want to build a business that was fully reliant on paid marketing. We didn’t want a business where a capacitor with lots of money could come in and just outspend us force, force us to spend more in marketing ourselves.

SEO is an incredibly defensible sort of moat, like it’s it’s a long term strategic advantage that cannot just be bought or stolen from you. And so, yeah, it was, it was a gamble, but it paid off, it paid off for us.

David: Definitely. Great. And in terms of Encore, who is responsible for, for SEO in your organisation, because obviously it touches many Stakeholders both directly and indirectly.

James: Yeah, when we started, and when we started working with you guys, my CTO, sorry, Iris CTO James he was definitely sort of fully responsible for SEO and he was leading the technical changes with our other developer he was liaising with Blue Array. He was, you know, having the, I think it was a weekly or fortnightly call us. And he was the sort of the point person for SEO. He delegated content to me and to some other members of the teams. So we would coordinate these. Content days where four or five of us on a weekend would just churn out like four or five blog posts each you know, and to try and produce a meaningful amount of content.

We now work with freelancers so that it’s more consistent and less spiky, but yeah, in the early days it was sort of James taking the lead on the technical side and I was sort of managing the content creation. No, one of our very first employees, Johnny oversees the content creation and actually our developer Elkin is largely responsible for the technical SEO changes that we make.

And they, you know, they keep an eye, especially keep an eye on algorithm changes and updates. I think they’re both going to the virtual Brighton SEO this month, the conference. And so actually, no, it’s, it’s not James and I, I was like C level with that are sort of leading it, but we’ve, we’ve given it to other members of the team who have done an incredible job and I’ve really sort of put in the work and it’s paying off.

David: Great. One of the common themes I hear in my conversations is certain stakeholders really do want to involve themselves with SEO in the detail. And then some don’t and I suppose, is that kind of at play at Encore?

James: I think that is actually what I’ve been pleasantly surprised by is there’s just a, there’s a lot of curiosity about it across the entire team.

Great. We’ve had new people join the company who, you know, didn’t even know what SEO meant before they joined. And after a month or two, they’ve actually asked, you know, if they can undertake, you know, I think HubSpot has some good content marketing courses. They’ve gone off and, and taught themselves, you know, the fundamentals of SEO.

And I think because. Because we’ve gone hard on SEO for the last two or three years, we’ve started seeing these incredible results. And actually every Monday morning, I show a set of slides that just recap how the last week was, you know, highly last week was in terms of KPIs. And actually we’ve included SEO stats in that for the last couple of years now.

So the whole team every Monday are seeing the progress that’s being made on SEO. And I think that has made everyone. Very naturally curious about it. And a lot of people have sort of offered to help with content creation or helped at least brainstorm content ideas, brainstorm potential backlink opportunities, brainstorm PR opportunities for backlinks.

So, yeah, actually everyone’s been, been quite curious about it and I think that’s been, that’s been really positive. That’s amazing to hear, to have to have it in, you know, in those weekly slides. So it’s, it’s always on the agenda.

David: That’s brilliant. And I guess, like you say we are seeing its success. People obviously gravitate to things that are performing well and you know, you want to keep, keep at it. So that’s, that’s great to hear. How do you measure marketing success? As a whole, and where does SEO’s kind of contribution sit within that wider mix?

“We actually get more inquiries from SEO then from ad words. And it used to be a tiny fraction and now I think more comes from SEO than anything else.”

James: So until I think about three years ago, we had a fairly naive grasp of marketing where, you know, we’d look weekly or monthly at the, just the, the CPA of ad words.

And we weren’t taking into account the fact that we offer like hundreds of different products and hundreds of different locations. And the CPA can vary wildly between a violinist in Glasgow, a search term, and a wedding band in London search time. So we were just sort of measuring the top, like top of funnel metrics and trying to keep the CPA low, but we weren’t doing a great job of it.

Then we restructured our whole sort of marketing set up so that we could track the ROI of, you know, every single campaign. And we also came up with these sort of expected values for each tag. So for example, if we make, say a hundred pounds per booking, and we know that one in, let’s say half of them convert, then each inquiry is worth 50 pounds.

And so we can then say to AdWords, never spend more than 50 pounds. So that’s the ceiling. And so we started to bake in the expected return and then we’d measure the actual ROI across all these channels. And that quickly showed us which campaigns were profitable, which ones were vastly unprofitable. And it helped us create a very profitable and strong paid marketing setup.

Then when you bring SEO into the mix, And the, you know, the early days it was just measuring, you know, how much traffic are we getting to these pages. Then once you’ve got some significant traffic, you’re trying to look at the conversion rate and you’re thinking, okay, how, how serious? Like what, what’s the intent of this traffic and how much of it are we capturing?

And then after like a year or so of work, The proportion of inquiries that were coming from SEO, or just started to like climb and climb so that now I think we actually get more inquiries from SEO then from ad words. And it used to be, a tiny fraction and now it’s, I think more comes from SEO than anything else.

So then we look at the overall as a company, we look at the blended CPA. And obviously, as you start to get more from SEO, you start to more your blended CPA and then your overall LTV to CAC ratio goes up and up. So yeah, on a sort of company level over the years, there’s just a very clear upwards trend in the ROI that we’re seeing on our, our marketing and a very clear downward trend in terms of like the blended cost of acquiring a customer.

I hope that wasn’t too like nitty gritty. No, I think it might be incredibly boring for someone who doesn’t know what any of those acronyms mean.

David: No, no, I think, I think you’re delivering real powers of wisdom there. Sorry. No, don’t worry about it. Cool. What general advice would you give him?

So any marketeers or, or business owners who are, who are listening to the to the, to the podcast that are kind of looking to embark on their own SEO strategy. So they may be kind of where you were say that the two to three years ago that you outlined.

James: Yeah. That’s a great question for us. We use quarterly OKRs. So objective key results. It’s a system that Google came up with for like goal setting. And the idea is you have maybe three or four big company objectives, sort of themes. And then within that you have key results for the last three years. Now we have had an SEO objective every single quarter, so like 12 quarters in a row or something like that.

“Get SEO to the top of the priority list and keep it there every quarter.”

SEO has been a whole category within our, our company goals. So I think firstly, if you’re serious about SEO, it needs to be like right at the sort of top of the priority pile and every quarter, you really need to think of SEO as one of the. You know, top three or top four things you’re going to do, because I just don’t think, I don’t think SEO is something that you can sort of do in a half-hearted way.

I think it does require, you know, like time and. It requires time over a long period of time as well. So it’s not like, you know, writing a blog post once every quarter, it’s going to help you bring your overall, you know, CPA down. You’ve got to write that blog post, like twice a week. And you’ve got to do that every week for like two years to start to see the impact.

So I think if you’re, you know, the finder, if a company is easy to change those priorities, if you’re a marketer and you don’t have, you know, the ability to decide what’s in the, just making a really clear and compelling case for SEO and trying to find case studies of companies. Who’ve used it to their advantage to convince whoever’s above you.

That it’s a worthwhile investment. I think also for us, the moment that we really started to take it seriously was when we engaged, we were. And when we started to work with you and when we, we paid agency fees and I guess the equivalent to that for someone who’s not working with an agency might be hiring a full time SEO writer or just hiring depending on the size of the company.

Like an SEO lead, who is at least like looking at the technical side and the content side, because I do think the roles you have and the people you hire definitely reflect the priorities of the organisation. So if you know, half of your company are salespeople, then that’s probably like a sales lead product.

And you probably know that sales is generating revenue for you. If there’s no one on your team who is like, dealing with SEO regularly, then you’re probably not prioritising it. So yeah, that would be, I guess, two pieces of advice. Get SEO to the top of the priority list and keep it there every quarter.

And ideally, if you can have someone who is like full time they’re, they’re focused, full-time on SEO or at least say to a marketer or someone on your team. I want half of your time be, be spent just on SEO because it’s a time investment, I think. And you need to invest sort of constantly to see the results.

David: That’s fantastic advice. Do you have any exciting plans or projects in the pipeline that you can tease a little bit of information about that, you know, coming up in the near future?

James: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think something, something that we’ve wanted to do for a long time and was obviously put on hold with Corona virus is to launch in, in new countries. So to take everything that we’ve learned in the UK, And to, to open up in another country, at least one other country, and then sort of, I guess, take on the world and become, you know, the, sort of the world’s best, biggest, and best provider of live music.

I think what’s been really interesting over the last few months is taking a look at the news and seeing some countries that have handled coronavirus extremely well and have been living, you know, Almost a life of normalcy for the last few months. Like if, if you went to New Zealand this time, last year, you would have had a few weeks of quarantine and a few weeks of lockdown.

And then, you know, you’ve probably lived a relatively normal life in New Zealand for the last year. So I think it’s, it’s made us look around the world and, and look at different markets and just think which markets, you know, are already semi normal again, which ones seem to be handling this well.

And, and where might we go next? So I think that’s incredibly exciting. I think we’re also much more ready for something like that. No, because we spent the last year working remotely. So I always used to think if you offer, if you open a new country handling culture is going to be quite tricky if all of your culture and everything about your company and your team is all happening in a physical space.

How do you sort of transplant that to another space, but actually if spent in the last year, on zoom. And we’re not going back to the office anytime soon. So I feel much more confident now that we could, you know, bring in new employees and a completely different company sorry, country, and, and, and we’d be fine.

So yeah, that’s, I guess the biggest sort of exciting project on the horizon, you know, can’t say when or where that will happen, but it’s definitely one of the things that I’m, I’m personally excited about and looking forward to getting stuck into.

David: Brilliant. Hopefully like if we obviously have a subsequent season of the podcast and I have you back at that point, we can kind of reflect on, on the, on that world domination that you’ve spoken about.

James: Fingers crossed.

David: Yeah. Fingers crossed. Awesome. Well, James, that was a very fascinating insight into the instant, the past 12 months. And it’s, it’s really encouraging to hear how you’re now thriving as, as the new year begins. Yeah. It was such a hard situation for, for many businesses, the whole COVID pandemic.

And I know we’re not out of the woods yet, so to speak, but no, it’s, it’s, it’s great to hear that you’re starting to thrive and you know, things are, things are really picking up for you. Thank you.

James: And yeah, it’s been a great conversation as well. I think Yeah, just to reiterate like SEO is definitely one of the best investments that we’ve ever made. And if I could start the business again, I’d be focusing on it from day one. And obviously not being like, paid to say this at all, but clearly we’re absolutely amazing to work with. So if anyone’s listening to this and thinking, you know, I want to take on Encore, I want to take SEO more seriously. Definitely have a chat with Blue Array because we had an absolutely fantastic experience.

David: I really appreciate those kind words. It’s lovely to hear and that kind of advocacy of what we’re all about. It’s the biggest buzz I get is, is to hear those success stories and people reflecting on, how SEO does, like you say, kind of, it’s such an enabler for, for business growth and what you can achieve with it when it’s done correctly.

James: Mm, absolutely. Absolutely.

David: Awesome. Well thank you very much for your time. And yeah I wish you all the very best and catch up with you very, very soon.

James: Thanks for having me. And I hope that yeah, I hope it’s a good season of the podcast. I’ll definitely be listening in myself.

David: Thank you very much, James. Cheers.